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Twelve-year-old cited in two-car accident

Saturday, June 16, 2012

A 12-year-old driver was involved in an accident near the intersection of 190th Avenue and 380th Street at 2 p.m. Thursday.

Clay County deputies responded to a two-car accident, and determined that a 12-year-old juvenile female, from Spencer, was traveling eastbound on 380th Street in a 1996 Dodge Grand Caravan, belonging to Heather Gustoff, when she failed to obey a stop sign and entered the intersection of 190th Avenue. The Grand Caravan drove into the path of a northbound 1997 Ford Taurus, being operated by Ardine Anne Olhausen, 75, of Sutherland.

The Taurus collided with the Grand Caravan and entered the east ditch on 190th Avenue.

Gustoff's Grand Caravan, which included three other passengers, sustained $500 in estimated damages, and Olhausen's Taurus received $1,500 in damages.

The 12-year-old was cited for operating without a valid driver's license, failure to obey a stop sign and failure to maintain control.

Daniel Sefcik, of Spencer, was additionally charged with child endangerment and interference with official acts.


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KCB You got that right--wonder if she will figure it out!

-- Posted by iowagirl on Sun, Jun 17, 2012, at 3:59 PM

They wrote the kid a ticket? Wow. I mean really. Wow.

-- Posted by jlees on Sun, Jun 17, 2012, at 8:44 PM

KCB and iowagirl, are you a mother (or a father)? I don't know the individuals involved, OR the REASON for the situation...but I do know that if I was in the mother's shoes, I wouldn't want someone else casting judgement on me! (especially if they didn't know the ENTIRE story!)

-- Posted by Funkyjavagirl on Mon, Jun 18, 2012, at 10:58 AM

Amen Funkyjavagirl!!

We should never judge...

-- Posted by windchimes3 on Mon, Jun 18, 2012, at 6:15 PM

You would think that with the number of sage's available here on the Daily Reporter's comments section we would be living in a Utopian community in no time flat!

-- Posted by deweyh on Tue, Jun 19, 2012, at 10:20 AM

just curious....how is the kid going to pay the ticket? I understand it was her fault and she needs to be held accountable and everything. and really super curious what in the heck was a 12 year old doing driving?? I am a parent and do agree that people shouldn't judge but when your 12 year old is caught driving your vehicle of course some red flags are going to go up and rightfully so. also curious it says there were 3 other passangers, did none of them have a license? if so why was a 12 year old driving?

-- Posted by AshlyMeyer on Tue, Jun 19, 2012, at 1:49 PM

I'm sure there is plenty more to this story but the bottom line is, we don't let 12 year old children drive - for any reason.

-- Posted by Culture Warrior on Tue, Jun 19, 2012, at 7:48 PM

AshlyMeyer and the other judgementals are you from around here? Do you not know what type of area this is for our kids? Do you not realize what kind of opportunity is out there for just this kind of action if you are a responsible parent? Do you see farmers and fields and dirt roads? Please stop and think about the statement you just flipping made. It is because of your naive thinking that gets us to the point where the goverment needs to tell us what to do!!!!!!!!

1) Your in IOWA

2)Kids drive before 16

3)Kids drive bigger things than just cars

4)Why wouldn't you take your kid out on the back roads and start to teaching them how to drive?

I did and I did it before 12! So because of your naive thinking lets get all seriouse about kids driving tractors too and atv and motorcycles!!!!!!!!! Come on Ashly and whoever else think before you make that kind of statement again! Red Flags and bad parenting pst! Well tell that to all the old folks that did this in their day and to all the farm kids that do it now. Their is a lot more of this than you town folk realize! Take of the blinders!

-- Posted by acerdj on Tue, Jun 19, 2012, at 8:01 PM

OK acerdj, would you feel the same way if it was your mother or grandmother that was hit by the 12 year old? We also should consider how the life of the 12 year old might have been changed had this accident resulted in a fatality. Would you want your child living with that?

-- Posted by Culture Warrior on Wed, Jun 20, 2012, at 6:01 PM

So are you saying the same to kids parents that are driving these tractors? My family members got pushed off the road by one. Would it suck if someone got killed? Heck yeah but what is the difference of a student driver doing this? Oh that thhey are 2 years older and with a so called instructor. The instructor that had my kids sucked and didn't teach them good rules. My kids complained about him all the time. Have you seen how some of these kids drive today? There will be nothing wrong with the kid in this accident. Unless ppl keep making it worse than what it is. Have this lady been killed than crap would of hit the fan, but to call her a bad mom and say that it raises red flags is just stupid! Hear the truth. Farmers teach their kids everyday of every year how to drive and tell me how many times they have caused accidents verses kids that aren't taught like this. So you can try all you want in putting a bad situation into what I said, because you and I both know that I said is the truth. PPL are naive and say things and are very judgemental before they think about all the angles and the big picture!

Please don't throw in fatality with what lays at hand. Compare apples with apples.

-- Posted by acerdj on Thu, Jun 21, 2012, at 6:32 AM

Acerdj- for one I wasn't judging, simply asking questions.... A person who judges simply makes an assumption without gathering info I'm asking questions to gather such info. As for your questions that have nothing to do with this situation that happened, yes I am from around here. And with growing up here myself and having children of my own yes I am aware of what type of area this is for our kids. I can honestly say my kids understand the consequences of their actions as well as I did when I was younger and my parents did as well. Yes I did drive before I was 16, but that was because I had a valid drivers permit and my parents took me out driving to practice. As for you crazy link to my asking a question to the government needing to tell us what to do I have not an idea of how you came to such a conclusion. I would assume that too young of kids driving and having accidents would be more likely to cause the goverment to change things than me asking a simple question. I'm sorry that you taken questions asking so personally. I know we the readers don't know the whole story, only what was written, I never said that I thought I knew the story or that I thought the adults needed to get in trouble or anything so I don't understand why you seem to have such an issue with me asking a few questions.

Kids probably do drive before 16, but that doesn't make it right, unless they are doing it under the circumstances that are legal. I also understand that kids drive things bigger than just cars, for the most part this is on their own property where they aren't going to be posing a risk to other drivers, and it wasn't the case in this situation. As I stated I have drove under the age of 16 and it was on back roads, but it was AFTER I was legal age to have and did have my driving permit. My kids will also have to wait to do the same. I have a 13 year old nephew that has begging for me to take him out driving but as I have told him, we will not do this until he has a driving permit first! So let me get this....since you did before you were 12 that makes it ok? is there not a law? should we be teaching our kids its ok to break the law? and yes I do think we should get serious about kids driving tractors, atv's and motorcycles. I don't know, maybe I'm crazy for valuing my kids lives and my own!? How many farm accidents take the lives of children as well? should we just ignore that fact? If you re read my post and take YOUR blinders off you will see I never said anything about bad parenting, I simply stated red flags. And yes when a law is broken it very well should signal a red flag, if you don't respect the law and understand that I don't know how else to explain it to you. I do have family members that did such back in the day, and some have died as a result and some missing fingers, etc. Sorry I'd rather my kids wait till the legal age and do it the right way as opposed to repeating some of the same accidents in the past. If the farm kids do it on their property where they won't be in the position to put other people in harms way and their parents are comfortable with them risking the chance of driving such machinery thats on them, but when they get on the roadways they need to follow the law. you would be surprised at how much maturity can be gained in 2 years and how much more learning of the rules of the road can be learned during that time. I also don't think its wise to rely on the drivers ed teacher, parents also need to take an active role in teaching their children how to drive. and yes we have all seen how kids drive these days which is why none of us want them to be younger and younger drivers! there will be nothing wrong with the kid in this situation this time, but will they be so lucky next time? is it really worth that risk? obviously you are set in your ways and are unwilling to see any other point of view, but I hope this discussion will help other readers to see all the points that have been made.

@Culture Warrior- I agree that people need to keep in mind that their mind set might be changed if they were on the other end of the situation but many fail or refuse to see things from this view, but I'm glad you made that point anyway!

-- Posted by AshlyMeyer on Thu, Jun 21, 2012, at 11:36 AM

Ashly, you hit the nail on the head... Unless it's an absolute emergency, there is no reason for a 12 year old to be behind the wheel on the public road system. On the farm, that may be a different story.

I drove a riding lawn mower, mini bike and go-cart on our property when I was that age but only drove a car when I received my learner's permit at 15 and mom or dad was in the passenger seat. My first time out was on a clear day on a minimum maintenance road. Only after they felt I was proficient did my folks allow me to drive on roads with other traffic. When the time came, I was fully prepared for driver's ed and had a good teacher. It's been 40 years since I got my learner's permit and I drive about 35,000 miles a year...other than a couple of fender-benders, no accidents and my last traffic ticket was 15 years ago.

The bottom line is there are laws regarding kids driving and they are in place for a reason...it's not tyranny or big gov't sticking it's nose into our business...it's called public safety. Out there on the road, the last thing I want to see is a 12 year old behind the wheel of ANY vehicle...!

-- Posted by Dennis the Menace on Thu, Jun 21, 2012, at 4:59 PM

Thank you Dennis the Menace! I was really hoping that I wasn't one of the only ones that was understanding the situation.

-- Posted by AshlyMeyer on Thu, Jun 21, 2012, at 9:57 PM

Ashly I was coming after because of the red flags. The way you stated it was also judgemental and I also want to say that I am one of the few that is the most open minded person out here. I took offense of this because of the level of judgemental there was in here. If you came from a farm you know that kids drive tractors more than just on their property! As far as loosing limbs and such that happens to everyone. It's called not paying attention or not thinking it could happen to me situation. I asked the questions because (I will give this conversation a fair shot) 50 percent of parents of Iowa start teaching their kids how to drive well before 12. I and my husband for instance had our kids on our laps and having them steer, than on back roads driving. This does not make me or other parents bad or have red flags raised up. It is simply that our parenting thought process is different than yours or others. As far as me saying about the goverment it was against the other two that were very judgemental.Parents are also getting way to laxy daisy with their kids and do not get involved as much as they should.

Now with you stating that you rather wait, that is fine. I could care less, because you feel and think that is best for your family. I on the other hand thought and felt differently. That is all. There should be no red flags, no pointing fingers, nothing. Yes the law is the law, but sometimes the law(not in this situation, cuss I would blow your mind by saying that kids shouldn't get a permit at 14)is wrong!

As for atv's and motorcycles and tractors, no you and I should not get involved in getting harsher rules out there. For one it is up to an adult to teach the proper way of driving them, not some joe schmo telling me how I need to teach them and such. Kids are also not stupid and pick up faster than adults do 9 times out of 10! For accidents, well lets just say adults I think are sometimes way dumber than kids. for one some think it is ok to be operating these things while drinking. So hmmmm where do you begin and where do you end. Ppl always want to begin until they notice there is no end. Just more problems.

As far as Culture....There is always what IF's. What if's are a variable in any situation so stop with bringing up variable's in a discussion and just address what is at hand. People usually do this because they have nothing else to fall back on.

Dennis.....I take it that you a some kind of truck driver as am I(maybe not as big as yours, but I travel just as much) So going on a limb here, you are like I am, biggest pet peeve for the road is how stupid ppl are on it. Also some truck drivers are stupid too! What I find funny in around about way is that if you stop to watch the age of most car accidents around here, are not teenagers. I have always said that I would love to get all the reports of these for the past 10 years and see if my thought process is correct. It seems that the ages are from 60 to up are involved. Than middle age, than younger. Dennis you being out there with me, notice that it is usually the adults that have their heads up the butt.

So here I am. I think that kids should NOT have their permits at 14 but at 15 in a half. This is what I grew up with. Ashley your right in saying that 2 years makes a difference in mind set, but do you realize how much influence you can have on them in those 2 years? Alot, now I am not saying that my way of thinking is correct, because every child is different! But please don't sit there and say that red flags need to be brought up. That is still being finger pointer. Please don't bring in variables, just address what the situation is. Everyone knows the variables. And for public safety, than we need to start attacking the situation of older drivers being allowed to drive too. They can reek alot of havic too!

-- Posted by acerdj on Fri, Jun 22, 2012, at 5:50 AM

Yes acerdj, there are always variables, but let's eliminate the obvious one of not allowing under aged drivers behind the wheel, it's the law. Many accidents are preventable in one way or another, this is an easy one.

-- Posted by Culture Warrior on Fri, Jun 22, 2012, at 6:14 AM

I was not going to reply back to you Culture, but let us also eliminat another obviouse too! Cell phones should be done with!!! That is big cause anymore. Not only with kids but with the truckers too. It is state law as of July 1 that truckers are not allowed to have that cell phone up to their ear. Want to know how many I see still doing it? How many DOT's doing it, cops, kids, adults, ect.? I myself? Cars and trucks should have some kind of device, that disables these things. Wonder how many lives could be safed by this alone?

-- Posted by acerdj on Fri, Jun 22, 2012, at 7:19 AM

Could we please keep our comments to a few sentences or a paragraph at the most. Keeps things more readable here.

-- Posted by randy cauthron on Fri, Jun 22, 2012, at 10:15 AM

Nope, not a trucker acerdj, I do electronic repair work in NW Iowa but have worked in SE Nebr and Broken Bow a few years ago...

-- Posted by Dennis the Menace on Fri, Jun 22, 2012, at 5:32 PM

acerdj, so far, in these posts, you sound like the most judgemental of all. No tolerance for the opinions of others, you seem to be very closed-minded and eager to make assumptions of others!

Asheley made a valid point, as did Dennis the Menace, and both did so in calm, reasonable tones, not in a shrill attack on the other people on this page. :)

-- Posted by DHarris on Sat, Jun 23, 2012, at 6:18 PM

Ummmm....when a juvenile is breaking the law, yes it should raise red flags. Simply because this happened on a back road and not in town doesn't matter. breaking the law is breaking the law. that's not judgemental its a fact. People are trying to be judgemental we are stating facts and actually caring about kids driving too young and the effects that it could have not only on the child driving but on others on the roads at the same time this child is driving. I've had plenty of family live on farms and their kids did NOT drive vehicles or machinery off the property before they were old enough and regardless its still illegal even if a lot of people do it!

-- Posted by AshlyMeyer on Sun, Jun 24, 2012, at 11:09 AM

As far as loosing digits or limbs, no not every situation is simply not paying attention. I guess I live in a more complicated world than you do. In response to 50% of parents teaching kids to drive well before the age of 12, obviously thats illegal and they all need to be ticketed, and 2 they need to be doing such on their own properties to not risk harming others. There is a reason MOST people no longer allow their kids to sit on their laps and "drive". and I'll admit, if I see it I'll be the first one to call it in if they aren't on their own property. I'm sorry but to me if you purposely break the law and allow your kids to do so as well, you are setting one heck of an example (such as they only have to follow the laws that they feel apply to them) and yes to me that should raise a red flag. I totally understand that there are way different ways of parenting and that differences don't necessary make them bad or good, but allowing kids to break the law to me is just ludacris. I do also agree with you that parents are getting to lazy and lax on kids these days but I don't feel allowing them to break the law is going to help things later on down the road either. as far as them driving, kids aren't even supposed to sit in the front seat of a car until they are 12 let alone drive the dang thing. and yes I really do listen and stick to these guidelines. you say there should be no red flags, or anything. what if someone would have died from the accident? or seriously injured? should there be red flags then? or still not? to me there shouldn't only be red flags in the case someone is hurt. As far as the law sometimes being wrong, maybe it is sometimes regarding other issues but this law is made for safety of the kids and others driving, how is it wrong to protect them? as far as the atv, motorcycle issue i'm not even going to go there right now but do have a question, have you seen the way kids drive just a moped? cuz I KNOW I can't be the only one seeing it. what if's are actually important to consider when it is regarding a situation such as peoples safety. if we simply only discuss the issue at hand, and the next time something comes up you have to start the whole process over again, to me its more important to think about the what ifs ahead of time and address those issues before they happen. trust I have plenty to fall back on. it seems to me that a simple debate gets you very agitated and you take it very personal and for that I feel sorry for you. None of these comments are made for you to take personal or anything like that. Simply debating the issue. You basically called me out on what I had to say so I will continue to rebuttal with the rest of what I have to say. I'm not trying to limit you on what you talk about on your rebuttal and I'm certainly not taking your comments personally so hope that you are able to do the same. you talk about how adults can be stupid and some truck drivers, etc. there will always be people that make stupid choices regardless of age, occupation, economic status, etc. As far as the accidents go. I have seen more than plenty regarding teenagers, and a decent amount do also happen with the elderly, probably mostly due to their poorer reaction time. With that being said I would rather drive around elderly as they drive the speed limit or below and are generally more cautious. As far as the reports I would assume they might be closer in numbers than either of us believe. I have had more than my share of middle aged business people driving crazy (speeding, changing lanes without signaling, changing lanes without checking first, on my back bumper, etc) so I can see where age brackets are probably pretty close. Having my own kids yes I do realize how much influence a parent can have on their children in 2 years, which is yet another reason I feel it is important for the parents to reinforce the importance of following the law. as far as TALKING about red flags, yep I said it. I personally don't care of someone calling me a "finger pointer". I want those around me to be following the same laws I'm to follow. what makes one person need to follow the law and not the next?

-- Posted by AshlyMeyer on Sun, Jun 24, 2012, at 11:10 AM

I also understand that older drivers are involved in accidents as well but as I have stated I honestly think the numbers are probably fairly close to what ages are involved in accidents. the difference probably lies in that elderly accidents probably occur at lower speeds and such. My grandmother was still driving at the age of 85 as was doing well at it. Had she not had a heart attack that made her feel unsure of herself she would still be driving today. She did have ONE accident since I was born (a long time ago) and that was when she was traveling to come see me and she was stopped at a red light and a middle aged person some how swerved over and hit her head on while she was sitting there. I'd rather have an accident with an elderly person as they are way more likely to be going way slower which will cause less impact and give me more time to react to the situation. A fair share of accidents also involve motorcycles but that doesn't mean all motorcycle drivers are reckless, a lot of the time it is that cars aren't watching out for them appropriately. Your refusal to reply back to Culture makes me believe that you refuse to acknowledge when someone has made a valid point against your current thinking. and Yes we probably all agree that cell phones are also a big problem with most drivers as well. if the law is to be effective july 1st for truckers, of course you will still see some doing it now. there will always be people that wait till the last minute to implement it.

-- Posted by AshlyMeyer on Sun, Jun 24, 2012, at 11:11 AM

Culture Warrior- YES very preventable! great point.

-- Posted by AshlyMeyer on Sun, Jun 24, 2012, at 11:11 AM

I did reply back to Culture if you read all my posts. I took the first part of this convo to heart not the rest. If you read my second reply, not one thing it would even give you an hint of personal. Just like your last two posts or are those you taken to heart? Cell phones are a lively hood for a lot of truckers and some don't care that it is against the law. Why are cops and DOT still doing it? Shouldn't they be the utmost responsible person? Cell phones are the leading causes of accidents and fatal accidents. Just came out last month that cell phones out rank drunk driving. As far as some laws being followed verses others. Did you know that you have some local police and state troopers that will not wear their seat belts because they have seen what they can do to ppl? One admitted to my daughter about this. No Ashly not all older drivers are slow! I have seen some crazy ones driving around town and I mean crazy. But I have seen one older man that I love to death because he drives the same speed no matter what!! As far as feeling sorry for me, you should probably look back on some of your posts and see that if someone disagrees with you, you get snappy. Nice, but snappy. Sometimes I agree, but sometimes I thought you were very rude. So please don't feel sorry for me. Your 3rd to last, seems like you got alittle heart felt on that one too. Than calmed on your 2nd to last one.

DHarris I was not judgemental, where in anyway did I put anyone down in here. I stated that ppl shouldn't point fingers, call names, or take a self rightous attitude all the time. I can probably find things that each ONE OF US(including me)has done that is either against laws or just what we think works best for the kids. I also stated that ppl need to take their blinders off. That is not being judgemental, it is stating a fact that ppl tend to get this way when they are only debating one side.

For ppl being dumb sometimes while driving.....I can openly admit that at times I can trully have my head up my butt!! My kids didn't have the laws that most have now. Mine were pretty much the age when they started no kids in front seat. What age do they have to be before they can sit in the front seat? Oh and far as teaching the kids not to break laws, man I hope your parents called the cops every time you went out drinking. IF you never have drank, than I am sorry. If you did, than does that make your parents bad or should have red flags? I state this because that was a bad bad debate to start on so many levels.

-- Posted by acerdj on Sun, Jun 24, 2012, at 10:00 PM

And yes accidents happen because either of ones own poor judgement or of someone elses! As stated in my house, there is no such thing as accidents, just a lack of poor judgement or not thinking. Case in point all the accidents up at North side of Spencer. So many ways to cure the problem, but noone really seems to want to do it. Until the reduction in speed and man I hope it helps a lot!!!!!!!!

-- Posted by acerdj on Sun, Jun 24, 2012, at 10:19 PM

I'm not sure how we really got from the topic at hand to cell phone usage. But as far as cell phones being important in certain occupations I understand that, a lot of the truckers that I know use a bluetooth headset. I'm personally ok with them doing such, especially since it doesn't go against the law, and as of right now I believe the law is that you can't text and drive which is maybe why you still see people talking on the cell phones. obviously until it is made a law for everyone and in full effect not everyone is going to willingly stop. Even then some will probably break the law as they feel (like you do in the other situation) that that specific law isn't really important. As far as what the cops are doing, thats not really my business. If they aren't hurting someone else then not really my issue. If they want to not wear their seatbelt and risk their lives more than they already do, thats their issue. I'm not personally being snappy and guess again I feel sorry if you take them that way, I'm simply having a conversation between 2 or more adults. I LOVE to discuss issues and very much can do so without getting too riled up or loud or hostile, so sorry if you read more into it than what I wrote. You talk about people taking off their blinders, just out of curiousity, have you always lived around here? Sometimes to be without blinders you need to view things from a rural and city standpoint, which can be hard for some to do that have never been outside of these surrounding rural communities. I also have stated that on some areas yes I do agree with some things that you are saying, so now I'm not being totally one sided or totally against you and I hope that you see that. I believe that kids need to be 13 to be in the front seat. They also go by height and weight to tell when they are able to come out of a booster seat as opposed to just going by age like they have in the past. As far as the drinking issue I am not a drinker, you say if we have never drank then sorry....why? I'm not sorry about it. Not saying I have NEVER drank but did so legally. And personally to me if you are underage and your parents know you are drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc. then yes it should have red flags and the parents need to do something about it, its called holding your kids responsible for their actions. As for the speed reduction at the north Y I think everyone hopes it helps. Nobody wants to see these accidents continuing to happen and people getting hurt. I still wonder if they may still occur as I don't know that I can say I 100% believe that speed was the only factor in 100% of the accidents. If it wasn't then I'm not sure that the reduction will stop them all. But no plan is perfect and I'm glad that they did something. I have also seen that they have A LOT of police around that area making sure everyone is doing what they are supposed to.

-- Posted by AshlyMeyer on Mon, Jun 25, 2012, at 2:22 PM

The cell phone was to Culture as just another obviouse problem that should be dealt with. My bringing it up to was to just show that ppl brake this law all the time as many other laws. Now you stated that if a cop doesn't wear a seat belt than your fine with it cuss it is their problem. But yet your going to call a parent in that is teaching their child underage how to drive. The law is the law, and it is for our safety, is it not? They are both the same, but different? A cop is more responsible because they took an oath to uphold the law. I have notice that you do agree on certain things with me, thus I have left that alone. Said sorry because I did not want to assume that you drank when you were a kid. Was asking and than stating why. Yes I agree with you on the point of the holding responsible to the kids and to the parents. Ty for letting me know the rules on the children and front seat.

I grew up and lived in Denver,CO Moved to Iowa, lived in small community and Spencer for 15yrs. So yes I have lived both life styles and would never go back to the city life. :) Let's agree to disagree, cuss I think (kidding around with you here) I am talking to someone that has never broken a law or rule lol. So it is kinda hard to have you see it from my point of view. I am done, I give.

-- Posted by acerdj on Mon, Jun 25, 2012, at 3:15 PM

you can drive at 14 tho ,long as there with a parant, a permit.

mine did at 14 with a permit and it was legal

-- Posted by BunnyRabbit on Mon, Jun 25, 2012, at 7:56 PM

and they are aloud to drive on the farm,at 12 yeares old. lots do.

-- Posted by BunnyRabbit on Mon, Jun 25, 2012, at 7:59 PM

just not on the street at age 12.

but the farm, yes they can, but should be with and adult tho i think.

-- Posted by BunnyRabbit on Mon, Jun 25, 2012, at 8:01 PM

wow some of these are long.alot to read

-- Posted by BunnyRabbit on Wed, Jun 27, 2012, at 1:14 AM

I guess my opinion is a law is a law. We should ALWAYS teach or children it is correct to follow the law. No matter if we agree with said law or not. Personally, I think the saying, "I did it as a kid" isn't good enough. Follow the law. Enough said.

-- Posted by smalltowntots on Sun, Jul 1, 2012, at 8:49 PM


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